Drivers license sneakily scanned in at Red Room, wtf?

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amatecha	Drivers license sneakily scanned in at Red Room, wtf?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 158 (09/26/08 11:19:22) Industrial Mafia Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None So when I went to the SITD show last night, the woman at the coatcheck/ticket desk asked to see my ID. No prob, verifying age is obviously standard stuff. But she didn't even look at my card. She just immediately scanned the card into some reader, off to the side behind the wall where I couldn't see - obviously running it through a cardreader attached to a computer, not unlike a lot of the more trendy venues such as The Roxy or so on. She didn't ask me if she could scan my ID into a digital database where it would invariably be stored on some networked server. Question is, when the hell did Red Room add this bullshit, why are they sneaky about it, and what corporation now has a digital readout of all the data on my drivers license? I don't know, Vancouver shows seem to have a tough time getting a crowd - it's not getting any better with your fucking personal information now stored by some company you don't know the name of , nor were asked permission to have your information stored by. A site called Hack Canada had a writeup on this company BarWatch which does exactly what I experienced last night. Their article on "BarWatch" (aka BarLink aka SecureClub) explains the implications of having your ID digitally scanned & stored every time you visit a club. They are talking about BarWatch specifically but the implications are the same regardless of the specific company: Here are some plausable potential abuses of the information in the BarWatch database: When the auto insurance companies start buying this data from BarWatch to see how often you visit the bar what do you think is going to happen to your already inflated insurance rates? Warrant out for your arrest? Too many traffic tickets? I'm sure the alarm bells will sound at the nearest police station as soon as your ID is scanned into BarWatch. The Police can just swing by to pick you up. A cop stops you and it indicates on his Mobile Data Terminal that you were scanned into the BarWatch system at a bar nearby 4 hours ago. Step out of the car please... Try getting affordable life insurance when they can check with BarWatch to see how often you go out drinking. Criminals break into the BarWatch database and begin creating duplicate ID's from the images of your ID which are stored on the BarWatch system. With those ID cards they can then easily open bank accounts, get credit cards, rent cars and other equipment, all in your name and you will be held responsible by authorities. Prospective employers check with BarWatch before hiring you to see how you spend your off-hours. Alternative lifestyle? Do you want just anyone finding out about the stripper bars or gay clubs you've been going to? Employers? Insurance companies? Your family? BarWatch knows all your secrets. Yeah, anyway.. I already decided not to frequent a ton of clubs that I get invited to every so often, because I'm not cool with that shit . Verifying age? No prob. Giving my full name, age, home address, date of birth, drivers license # and other data to some random business for them to store in a database, without my consent? Absolutely unacceptable. -Andrew @ FMTA [myspace]
dr erik		#1	[-]
Posts: 499 (09/26/08 11:50:40) The Doktor is in Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It happened to me the first time I went to the Red Room, some two years back. I asked what it was for, and she explained. It hasn't happened since, until yesterday. But this time she didn't say that she was scanning it, though. I just guessed, since she disappeared with it. I am a bit ambivalent to these kind of things. I think BarWatch is a great program, in principle. I have no warm feelings against brawlers and gang members. But storing and sharing information about guests and costumers...? I'm not so sure about that... I think we should at least be informed - every time, without having to ask - what they do with our IDs. And there should also be easily available information about what the database contains and how it's used. I guess there is, somewhere, but it should be clearly stated at the clubs/pubs/bars where that is. Other issues: Can you be informed of what the database contain about you? Can you ask to have your information removed from the database? What information does the bouncer/coatcheck/whatever get when he or she scans the ID? These is also information that should be readily available, in my opinion. Babe? Did you forget to take your meds?!
amatecha		#2	[-]
Posts: 159 (09/26/08 12:02:12) Industrial Mafia Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It's already been shut down in Alberta apparently. I'd like to see the same happen here in BC. http://www.privacylawyer....oner-forbids-license.html Check out this venue owner getting pissed off about not being allowed to scan IDs now: http://calsun.canoe.ca/Ne...a/2008/02/20/4862728.html "Insurance companies loved it, the calls to police were down ... the only people who didn't like it were the bad people." Oh, yeah, and what about people who value their rights to privacy and freedom? -Andrew @ FMTA [myspace] Last Edited By: amatecha 09/26/08 12:05:43. Edited 1 times.
cheekie devil		#3	[-]
Posts: 7169 (09/26/08 13:39:15) Giga-WOPs of Power! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Whoaaaa! Before this goes any further with conspiracy theories, lemme just clarify a couple of things since before going and reading into all sorts of government scanning and database practices, a long time ago when they first started doing this at the Red Room, I just went into the coat check, checked out the setup, asked the coat check girl what exactly the little doohickey was, and then checked in with the owner and security about what the system actually was. There is no scanning going on, the card is not run through a scanner in any way. What it is, is it's placed for just a second or two under a video recorder, which just records visually what the Driver's License looks like. The information is not digitally scanned or recorded, there is no digital 'signature' of you even being there, unless they visually go look you personally up, freeze the visual record, and then transcribe the information. Which I suppose you could still have a problem with, but realistically, the fear of spooks building some kind of a 'file' on you this way seems verrrrrrrry unlikely. How this helps the club is, if there is a security problem, they'll obviously have the person on camera who was the problem, and they can just go and look at the video record from the entry, and look up the name and Driver's License # of the person. Essentially the whole thing that looks like they're 'scanning' the card is just a quick way of jotting down the info of who it is that's coming in, for future reference if there is a problem. If there is no problem, they'd never, ever look back at that info. At hundreds of people a night, it's not even worth it. Thinking about it further, if you use a passport or some other non 'card' type of info, they record it the same way, just -blip- a couple of seconds under the video recorder for a visual record. No scanning. Personally, I think this is the best middle-ground method of working to ensure club security and having some kind of way of cracking down on problems, without getting too far into systems that lead into the possibility of digitally tracking people. If you enter the club, and know you're not anonymous should you start shit, you're way less likely to start a fight or whatever It's slightly off-putting, I understand, but on the one hand you have people who take major offense to any record of them coming in as a personal offense against their civil liberties, but on the other hand, you have people who freak out about what kind of bullshit it is if something happens at a club and they have no way of providing any information on individuals who cause problems. To me, the system they've got at the Red Room pretty much works well here, and is pretty quick and efficient to boot. By comparison, I went in to The Modern and they took my driver's license, referenced it and filled in a bunch of fields on a freaking computer they had right there at the entry point, and the clicked 'save / next'. Yikes! Hopefully this clarifies things a little. "Some people say that life's a game - if this is so I'd like to know the rules by which the game of life is played." Last Edited By: cheekie devil 09/26/08 13:44:21. Edited 2 times.
SkittleSPOOK		#4	[-]
Posts: 5386 (09/26/08 17:38:55) 'insert witty title here' Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	oooh...i never knewthat! i totaly thought they were doing the scan save data thingy...
amatecha		#5	[-]
Posts: 160 (09/29/08 10:59:11) Industrial Mafia Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hey Isaac, Thanks for explaining that about it.. that is actually half-reasonable, if it's just like a video tape of the visitors. Although, what happened might still be of questionable legality in terms of BC/Canada privacy laws (consent etc.) since my full name (incl. middle name), birthdate, signature, home address and photo are all on the front of the card - more than enough to qualify as keeping record of private data.. If I cared enough in this case to pursue it, I'd be asking how long they retain the tapes, that kind of thing. I've always seen the practice of scanning IDs as basically never being reasonable unless truly necessary.. and it's something that I could see happening at some trendy rock/pop/hiphop clubs like I had mentioned in my first post.. but seeing it "creep in" at venues like Red Room kind of sucks (although I know Red Room has had some bad people cause problems in the past, not on one of "our" nights tho). Yeah, your scenario at The Modern is what I've experienced at other clubs like Vanilla Room and Mirage and The Roxy and so on. I forget where it was, one of them was like "please look at the camera" and the person snaps a photo with a video-camera attached to a PC, in addition to doing a magstripe scan.. what the fuck? Needless to say I'm never going back to those locations. The Vanilla Room does a high-res scan of your drivers license with literally a flatbed scanner right into their networked BarWatch-like system. Anyway, yeah, what you've described is at least reasonable. My big concern was that it's a "slippery slope" and I really don't want to see those fucked up BarWatch-type systems like I mentioned before, creeping in on Red Room and 23 West and so on... -Andrew @ FMTA [myspace]
ordeneus		#6	[-]
Posts: 995 (09/29/08 12:24:45) Fuck religion! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Privacy Commissioner in Alberta has already banned this, (In February this year) and the BC one if considering it now. As Amatecha said it's of questionable legality anyway without consent, knowing it's going to happen still does not constitute consent. So, the upshot is, if the BC Privacy Commissioner rules the same way as AB did, then these things will get ripped out anyway... Although I understand Isaac's description, and that does indeed not sound that bad, it hasn't been demonstrated that it actually does what it says anyway. IE, where's the evidence that violence goes down after ID's are recorded? Oh, and if you want bad privacy invasions... Try the Cecil! "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."- Denis Diderot
cheekie devil		#7	[-]
Posts: 7178 (09/29/08 12:33:37) Giga-WOPs of Power! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you go and actually watch your ID go through the device at the Red Room, it's pretty obvious that there's no high-res scanning or recording of details going on. It's just placed on a plain tray under a video recorder for a few seconds, and then removed, and that camera is time-linked up with all the other video cameras everywhere else around the club, the front door, at the coat check, etc, so they can pair it up with who it was. Again, yes, technically, they've recorded all your pertinent details in a fashion, but at several thousand people going through every week, and at the very least several hundred on most nights, is the fear that someone is looking you up specifically and 'building a file on you' very realistic? I'm thinking no ... I'm also highly skeptical they keep the volume of otherwise useless information week after week when there are no problems - generally speaking, the problems they're trying to guard against - mostly violence and gang activity in clubs - rears its ugly head night of, if it's gonna happen at all. If the need for the archived material hasn't come up in a matter of 24 or 48 hours, it usually isn't going to at all. "Some people say that life's a game - if this is so I'd like to know the rules by which the game of life is played."
amatecha		#8	[-]
Posts: 162 (09/29/08 14:07:04) Industrial Mafia Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah, I'm not concerned about having some "file" built up on me at all. I only get concerned about the continual degradation of privacy that people don't notice because of its slow-moving progress. The privacy laws we have seem pretty ultra decent - I was reading up on them and found them to be totally what I would have expected, which is great. The only concern is when places don't adhere to those laws (or just aren't fully aware of them). I kind of wonder how many club-goers get their privacy rights violated every weekend by going to one of the clubs I had earlier mentioned, not realizing they should be saying "hey, you're breaking the law!" ... -Andrew @ FMTA [myspace]
amatecha		#9	[-]
Posts: 163 (09/29/08 14:15:10) Industrial Mafia Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Nice quote I found on this article : "It is a profoundly perverse principle that suggests that where there is the potential to commit a crime, you can collect everybody's personal information" - Murray Mollard of BC Civil Liberties Assoc. heh: [BarWatch owner] Teti later stated security measures undertaken by the entertainment industry may need to be revised to ensure public safety and individuals' privacy are sufficiently balanced. "You could put up a sign saying that, if criminal activity takes place, this information may find its way to the courts," he reflected. Yeah, Mr John Teti, that info might find its way to the courts, but regardless, it's sitting in your company's ["secure?"] database full of untold numbers of peoples' private information. No one is disputing the validity and neccesity of busting criminals. It's when fucking completely law-abiding citizens have their personal information catalogued by a private corporation without consent, that people like me start getting really pissed off, and that's what Mollard dude is pointing out. -Andrew @ FMTA [myspace]
Punkbutt		#10	[-]
Posts: 159 (10/06/08 21:59:02) EZboard Pandora Bot Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	sorry, I could have helped answer this but I've been offline the only time I had my ID 'scanned' at the Red Room was a Sanctuary long weekend in summer of 2006. now I work at the club and have actually used the 'scanner' which is merely a video camera and a desk lamp. I'll ask the owner what the rotation schedules on the cameras are, I'm pretty sure there aren't any tapes retained at all. From what others in the industry told me it is an effective way of making a club safer.
ordeneus		#11	[-]
Posts: 1001 (10/07/08 09:22:21) Fuck religion! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	From what others in the industry told me it is an effective way of making a club safer That's anecdotal though, and doesn't prove anything. It still has not been demonstrated that this approach even works, "you'd think it would" doesn't equal evidence! "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."- Denis Diderot
Punkbutt		#12	[-]
Posts: 161 (10/07/08 13:43:34) EZboard Pandora Bot Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Uhh, I wasn't trying to supply DV with evidence to prove anything, I was just sayin'
cheekie devil		#13	[-]
Posts: 7186 (10/07/08 13:46:10) Giga-WOPs of Power! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Aside from which .. still supports the evidence that no information is being digitally 'scanned' at this venue on entrance, nor is information being retained in any meaningful way which might give cause for undue alarm ... "Some people say that life's a game - if this is so I'd like to know the rules by which the game of life is played."
ordeneus		#14	[-]
Posts: 1002 (10/08/08 06:54:35) Fuck religion! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Oh I agree with that, and feel much better going in that venue for what I now know. .. I'm just sayin as well, that in general, this whole "scan yer ID you won't be bad" thing isn't proven at all. "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."- Denis Diderot
GingerTea75		#15	[-]
Posts: 1291 (10/22/08 11:45:20) sanity is relative Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	http://www.news1130.com/n...ent=20081022_071145_12232 From today: VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - Scanning your drivers license as you walk into your favorite bar or pub in Vancouver could violate your privacy. The Bar Watch program documents patrons as a way to combat the violent incidents at bars. Now a review of the Bar Watch program is underway by BC Privacy Commissioner David Loukidelis after an anonymous complaint. Vancouver Police say they are happy with the program because the Granville bar district isn't as violent since it started. ------------------------------ "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." --Sam Brown
amatecha		#16	[-]
Posts: 164 (01/05/09 13:28:50) Industrial Mafia Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah, I contacted BC Civil Liberties Assoc about it. They say they've received "many complaints" about BarWatch and related ID-scanning programs. "A recent article on the issue is here: http://www.canada.com/the...0-4067-be6b-e0369bf3e3db. Hopefully this will be a victory for us as we've certainly been pressing for the end of this program." However, that article was at the end of Oct and I see no newer news about the topic yet. Time will tell.. (then again if I really wanted to, I'm sure it wouldn't be very hard to get some more recent info from people more closely involved) -Andrew @ FMTA [myspace]
amatecha		#17	[-]
Posts: 167 (07/22/09 14:08:13) Industrial Mafia Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Fuck yeah. Got an update about this. Judge in BC rules that BarWatch violates privacy laws. Finally! http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/07/22/bc-barwatch-violates-privacy-laws.html B.C.'s information and privacy commissioner has ordered a Vancouver nightclub to stop photographing patrons and scanning their personal identification into a database, after ruling the practice violates B.C.'s Personal Information Privacy Act. David Loukidelis launched his investigation after a customer of the Wild Coyote Club in Vancouver complained about the practice, which is used by many clubs in Metro Vancouver, Victoria and other parts of B.C. as part of the Barwatch program to curb violence in bars. The privacy commissioner said Tuesday he shares concerns about gang violence at nightclubs but putting every patron's information into a database is not justified when trying to track relatively few troublemakers. -Andrew @ FMTA [myspace]

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Drivers license sneakily scanned in at Red Room, wtf?

Drivers license sneakily scanned in at Red Room, wtf?

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